Hydraulic vs. Hybrid vs. Electric

[moldingppm]

I know this is a question that's brought up more often than not. I wanted to see how everyone feels about these.

Personally,
All of my machines are hydraulic. I've had so many issues with my machines relating to hydraulics in the last 2 years, out of 8 machines, every.single.one. has been down because of a hydraulic failure.
I'm currently running a part (it's a washer) out of a 16 cavity mold, cold runner, sub gated. We run a little over 3.4 million pieces per year just of this part (we also do 2 or 3 other sizes, annual volumes vary on those). I'm having a hell of a time making a 55,000 - 100,000 piece per week minimum delivery. Again, because of hydraulic failures while running this mold (1 machine destroyed clamping piston, 1 machine blew a heat exchanger, and now another has a few leaks where it's running now).

I've been looking into some new machinery. Being a small family business (with a hand full of jobs that we run, thanks outsourcing :mad:) I'm looking to pickup a new machine for production of this part. I've had talks with Arburg and Milacron, of course all they care about is making the biggest commission. So my questions/assumptions are as follows;

Hydraulic (straight Ram)-
Pros:
Cheapest
Seals are cheap and usually easy to find


Cons:
Anything bigger than seals can be over $5,000 easily
Sometimes leaks are a B**ch to find, causing a messy shop
Tough to control


Hybrid (don't know a lot about these)-
Pros:
Obviously median in expense
Less electric used

Cons:
Everything except clamp and dosing is still hydraulic



Electric -
Pros:
Servos to never leak oil
Shot size can be controlled the best for those tricky parts.
Faster cycle times
Tolerances can be held the best in this machine

Cons:
Pricey (almost double what I was quoted for a fully hydraulic)
Servos can be expensive (I'm guessing)
Availability can be tough

As for manufacturers, I've looked at Arburg, Milacron, and Nissei.
I'd be looking in priority: Arburg (already know the Selogica controllers, like the quality)> Nissei (I like the new Nex-III machines, controllers are nice and the machine all around looks good)> Milacron Roboshot (Good track record, Faunic makes some nice controls, I just don't like the looks of them very much)... I'm sure Rick will be putting his input on Engel machines, feel free!


Can anyone add to this?

I feel my other problem is running a 15 year old (~50 million pieces produced or 3.2 million shots) 16 cavity, cold runner, sub gated mold. Would I be better off with a hot runner setup? It's hella pricey for a 16 cavity including the valve gate controller and temp controllers. But would I see a better yield by going fully electric with a hot runner? If I can justify the price, I would go for it and save my ass, as well as my customers.


Sorry for the multiple questions, but I'm looking for some good advice.

[moldingppm]

One thing I didn't add, I'm not sure how hot runners like regrind, as I sometimes run up to 100% RG.

[Josue]

One thing I didn't add, I'm not sure how hot runners like regrind, as I sometimes run up to 100% RG.

HI,
we have , hydraulic, hybrid, and All electric,,
'
and you are right, every one has its own pro and cons, my case, we have sumitomos all electric, and sodick hydraulic and hybrids,,,,sumitomos run faster cycles, but we expend less $ in maitenance in the Sodicks, so I prefere Sodicks because are more stronger , and the ROI come faster,, however the initial cost its higher than sumitomos...,,,, but the tendency its to buy All electric due to faster cycles, less energy consumption, etcc... its very important the brand or maker,,



we use to run a hot runner molds, but now we sw to a cold runer molds, because we start to use alot of recycle and some times the hot tips in the hot runner get block very often, so now we are better with cold runner molds....

[moldingppm]

HI,
we have , hydraulic, hybrid, and All electric,,
'
and you are right, every one has its own pro and cons, my case, we have sumitomos all electric, and sodick hydraulic and hybrids,,,,sumitomos run faster cycles, but we expend less $ in maitenance in the Sodicks, so I prefere Sodicks because are more stronger , and the ROI come faster,, however the initial cost its higher than sumitomos...,,,, but the tendency its to buy All electric due to faster cycles, less energy consumption, etcc... its very important the brand or maker,,



we use to run a hot runner molds, but now we sw to a cold runer molds, because we start to use alot of recycle and some times the hot tips in the hot runner get block very often, so now we are better with cold runner molds....

Thanks for the reply, Josue.

Sounds like you're one of the guys who knows first hand what I'm talking about. I agree, maintenance on the all electric will be more, but I'm wondering the life span of the servos and/or other things on the machine. Such as, will the electric be down for maintenance sooner than the hydraulic? The world may never know. Too many variables.

I did just realize that if I go with a hot runner, I will have no regrind (duh!, *brain fart*).

[rickbatey]

A true hybrid can have electric screw drive which is money, cycle, and electricity saver. While at one company all Engels 600t and up had electric screw drive on main component. Worth every penny cuz 2000t ran 2K wheel house liners at 45 s. I love Engel but don't like the new CC200 controller. Present employer has a new one coming, so I better get to liking it better.
As I see it, you need a robust and solid press. Arburg are ok but not crazy about them. Can find few faults with any Japanese built press. I loved JSW more than Engel at one time but few of the Japanese build robots. I love Fanuc robots more than any other 6-axis, so I expect their machines to be bullet proof as well. Nissei is good but I would prefer Toschiba. Lots of time on them years ago running 100% RG and few issues.
It appears you really need two machines so you've a back up. Any press can die early without proper PM's, clean oil, heat exchanger able to cool oil to a good temp (too hot and oil and seals pay the price), not level, or lubed. Many machines don't have Platten supports and that kills ram seals as well as high clamping force on a press (100% max every shot). I honestly think you need a toggle with tonnage control, electric screw drive, and exactly the optimum shot size for the tools you run. Though a tie bar less Engel might make a convert out of you as well.
Rick.